R50 vs. R51 vs. R52

[dcfbf]

I'm trying to get a Thinkpad from the pre Lenovo buyout period and I have narrowed it down to any of the R5x series.

I know that the R5x and T4x series have both the problem with the southbridge and the ati gpu due to excessive heat.
Though I have read on this forum that because of the larger body of the R series, the problem is slightly less worse than the T series hence my decision to go with R series (also no rubberized coating)
So now I'm down to which r5x Thinkpad to buy
Which is where I have my problem. As from what I can see, they all use pentium m cpus, they all take a max of 2 gb of ram, they all look the same other than the difference between the 14 and 15 inch(duh), and they all cost about the same on ebay.

Is there a reason to get one over the other or should I just get whatever I see is the best value and just go with that? Are there any ones that I should particularly want to avoid?
I know the R52 uses DDR2 instead and has a 533mhz front side bus, does that make a noticeable difference?

Another thing I see is that there is a "e" version of these Thinkpads ex: R50e, is there a big difference between the regular one and the "e" one?

I've read about people use either a copper pipe or a copper sheet to wick the heat away from the two problematic chips. Which one would be the better one in terms of preventing failure and does it actually work?

Also I see a lot of them with vertical lines through their displays, what is the cause of that? the gpu? the cable? the lcd panel itself?

An answer to any of my questions would be much appreciated.

[TPFanatic]

The -e ones lose some of the point of the ThinkPad as a desktop replacement. -e models lose the touchpad (if you care) but worse lose the Ultrabay, Dock port, and usually lack a cardbus slot and other I/O.

If it was me I'd aim for the R52 since it has Expresscard. It's a good bridge between all ancient IBM accessories. I'd then abandon the internal wireless due to the heat issue, replace it with Ethernet or some other 802.11 solution, and hope the Southbridge is intact. By the time of R52 the bad soldering and flexing issues of the older models is somewhat mitigated. There's fun to be had with the card expansion and full-size docks, with even more cards, PCI slot, and a second Ultrabay. Maybe even the IBM floppy connector. At least with R52 the Expresscard can be converted to a full-size PCI-E slot. You can build up quite a rig, it's something I'd like to do with my A31p at some point. #JustThinkPadThings

I think I just sold myself on an R52. Hopefully they're still around when I get back into the swing of things.

[dcfbf]

The -e ones lose some of the point of the ThinkPad as a desktop replacement. -e models lose the touchpad (if you care) but worse lose the Ultrabay, Dock port, and usually lack a cardbus slot and other I/O.

Ah then I probably will try to avoid those then. I don't care about the touchpad because they suck on old laptops anyways but I want all the I/O I can get

If it was me I'd aim for the R52 since it has Expresscard.

Oh wow you're right I guess that would be one of the reasons that I should get the R52. I don't especially need it to have Expresscard but its always nice to have.

It's a good bridge between all ancient IBM accessories

Yeah being the last Thinkpads released by IBM aside, the main reason I wanted one of the R5x Thinkpads was so that I could have a bridge laptop. These are the last to use IDE hdds, they support a plethora of operating systems, and they have many legacy ports still on the machine itself unlike my T61 who doesn't really have anything that I would consider as legacy connectors, maybe modem or PCMCIA but other than that, everything else could be found on new laptops just a few years ago.

I'd then abandon the internal wireless due to the heat issue

Yeah when I get one I will probably remove the wifi card. Not like I especially need or use wifi on these old laptops. Though is there a bios mod to potentially install a newer wifi card?

bad soldering and flexing issues of the older models is somewhat mitigated

Ok I'm starting to lean into getting an r52 then. Though something that I do remember seeing is that the R52 didn't have a flexview display option so would I still be able to upgrade the display to a flexview or do I need the older models to have that upgrade path?

Oh wait another question, I am interested in OS/2 as an operating system for this laptop. I see drivers for the T43 but none for the R52, since they are basically the same computer, would the drivers for the t43 work on the r52?

Also wow I just researched a bit on the docks and they are sick. This really makes me want to get the advanced dock for my t61 too. The later thinkpads that only offered port replicators cannot compare. Like you said it adds an extra ultrabay, more PCMCIA cards, and I just checked, the IBM floppy connector, but I think the best part has to be the PCI slot which allows you to add a desktop(although it's half height) gpu into the machine. Too bad none are on sale anywhere

[RealBlackStuff]

+1 for R52.
If you get one with Intel graphics, you'll have one less built-in heater .
This Intel one will take an SXGA+ LCD.
But if you get one (15" only) with ATI, you can also put in UXGA.

Then have a look at T43p SATA Guide (There are pictures, it's 2020).

R50/R51 = versions of T40/T41.
R52 = version of T43.

[dcfbf]

Ok not sure why I somehow posted a reply according to the forum navigator without doing anything but thanks for confirming that the t43 drivers will probably work.

I'm most likely going for the R52 with ATI as I found one that looks relatively clean for cheap with the ATI gpu. (Seems like everyone is scared of the ATI ones or something)

I most likely won't be doing the SATA mod because I actually want the IDE...maybe I may change my mind when I get it, but I'm sure keeping the IDE won't be too bad...right?

[dr_st]

Though something that I do remember seeing is that the R52 didn't have a flexview display option so would I still be able to upgrade the display to a flexview or do I need the older models to have that upgrade path?

Yes, R52 did not have stock FlexView display options (R51 was the last R series to have that). However, an R52 will absolutely take a T4x/T6x FlexView display.

[dcfbf]

cool cool but if lets say I did get a Flexview from a T6x, since those don't use the display cable to tell the computer resolution but the R52 does, would I simply use the display cable that matches that resolution or could I technically use any cable?

Also I'm a little confused, do I need a different cable and inverter for Flexview? If I want a SXGA+ Flexview, could I use any SXGA+ cable and inverter, including the ones for the TN?

[RealBlackStuff]

Flexview is another word for IPS (screens).
I suggest you get the necessary T4x/R5x manuals from the HMM-Manuals link at the top of this page.
And of course research the T4x and T6x forums as well...

[dcfbf]

Ok! I have done my research!

So It turns out the UXGA and SXGA+ IPS inverter cards are interchangeable. The P/N are:
T40-42: 93P4161
R50-51: 91P7336
T43 leaded: 27K9976
T43 unleaded: 39T0361
T60: 42T0029
Not 100% sure if they are interchangeable but from what I have seen they probably are.


In total there are 3 choices for SXGA+ panels used by IBM/Lenovo themselves(The brightness is 200 cd/m^2, the color gamut is 47%NTSC, and DPI is 116 ppi for all of them):
1. IDTech N150P3-L01:
- 400:1 contrast ratio
- 60ms response times
- 85/85/85/85 viewing angles
- IBM P/N number is 92P6680
- included in R50-51 and T40-43

2. LG Phillips LP150E05-A2K1:
- 550:1 contrast ratio
- 50ms response time
- 88/88/88/88 viewing angles
- IBM P/N number is 92P6761 in the T43
- Lenovo FRU: 13N7078 in the T60
- included in T43, 60
The page I am referencing for the actual model number, contrast ratio, and response time: the TFT display page in the thinkwiki.org website says that it was also included in the T42 but the HMM of the T42 doesn't list it.

3. BOE Hydis HV150P01-100
- 500:1 contrast ratio
- 40ms response times
- 89/89/89/89 viewing angles
- Lenovo FRU is 13N7196
- included in the T60
This is actually not IPS but AFFS which is apparently even better than IPS in most ways like color reproduction, transmittance, and viewing angles


For the R52, The T60 LCD cables are most likely useless because the T60 LCD cables don't tell resolution but here are their FRU/Part Numbers for the SXGA+ IPS:
R50-51, T40-43: 91P6827
T60 bluetooth: 91P6985
T60 without bluetooth:91P6983


From what I have seen from a search on ebay, these parts are pretty rare and either very expensive or non existent with only the IDTech one being reasonably priced.

Also while researching this I also found this post on the Thinkpad marketplace that already includes the info on the displays and looks a lot cleaner. But by then I had already written everything above and I am not going to admit that I wasted my time because I did hard work researching this too ok? Also mine has everything the cables and the inverter cards too so its technically better. Sorry I'm just hurt and I feel like I wasted my time.


But as a way to use up even more of my time researching, I am going to find ones that IBM/Lenovo didn't also include in their machines yay!...I'm dying inside

IDTech N150P3-L01 has sibling in the form of the N150P3-L02 and L04 which from what I can see is literally the same panel but with a different model number so it should still work with the R52 and all the other ones from the same time period.
Not sure if this will fit but maybe the ID Tech IASX12 and its variants that was included in the A30 and 31 might work? Its like a mm thicker though

That's about it...I wasted 4 hours of my time researching just to find 2 variants of an already known model, a panel for another older IBM Thinkpad, and a whole lot of SXGA+ non IPS panels. Who knew that there were so little choices available.


Though some of them actually look like they have decent specs:

Hannstar HSD150PK14-C00:
- 200 cd/m^2 brightness
- 500:1 contrast ratio
- 65/65/45/65 viewing angles

AU Optronics B150PG04 V1:
- 170 cd/m^2 brightness
- 400:1 contrast ratio
- 65/65/45/45 viewing angles

QDI QD15FL02 Rev.01:
- 170 cd/m^2 brightness
- 400:1 contrast ratio
- 65/65/45/45 viewing angles

CMO N150P5-L01:
- 220 cd/m^2 brightness
- 300:1 contrast ratio
- 60/60/45/45

I'm not completely sure if either of them will even work because no one is stupid enough to want to try this...probably...anyone who wants to upgrade will just go to IPS or one that IBM originally put into their computers to ensure compatibility but hey, I already did this research at least let me brag about it ok? But notice how either you compromise on contrast ratio or brightness for all of them except for the Hannstar one.

[RealBlackStuff]

No need to be p'd off by some hard labour, the more you know...
How deep you (want to) go is entirely up to you!
One thing that often gets overlooked: LCD mounting holes (or not) and their locations.
The forum also has a Search box (top right) that often gives a quick answer to people's questions.
Also don't forget that these machines are about 20 years old and have lost most of their attraction.

[TPFanatic]

@dcfbf:

I love your passion. Keep it up and you will go far.

I recommend sourcing an IDTech, as it as genuinely IBM as you can get, as IDTech was IBM's house brand. You would essentially be building an IBM system that IBM themselves did not build. I personally love the IDTech UXGA panels the most, I find they are still incredible panels to this day and far superior to the LG panels which yellow and dim.

[dcfbf]

No need to be p'd off by some hard labour, the more you know...
How deep you (want to) go is entirely up to you!
One thing that often gets overlooked: LCD mounting holes (or not) and their locations.
The forum also has a Search box (top right) that often gives a quick answer to people's questions.

I was just very frustrated in the moment because I had just done about 2 hours of research looking at all the hmms and the availability of the parts just to find that there was already a list of the parts on this exact website. But now I'm laughing at how funny it is because now I remember seeing that exact post as I was researching on upgrading my T61 before I bought it, weighting out the options and if I should pay extra for the 4:3 or not.

I don't even want to get started on the LCD mounting holes. Though technically you only need a few to line up right? I had a hard time lining up the mounting holes and I even ommited a few screws on my T61 after I took apart the screen assembly and it still put together nicely.

Also yeah you are right this forum does have a search box that is very fast and useful but I have always thought that it was a little hard to use for general topics so I never thought about using it for my purposes here.

Also don't forget that these machines are about 20 years old and have lost most of their attraction.

You don't have to remind me, any actual information and posts that talk about parts and upgrades are from over 10 years ago and are scattered on all corners of the internet. Though I have realized a trend in the order of what things happen for all computers that I have done research on:

First: There is always the people who ask about if they should get it about 1-2 years after it released, comparing it to a similar model released around the same time.

Second: There starts to be an increase in modifications and repairs and a decrease in asking about if they should get it or not

Third: people ask if that computer is still useable at that year
Ex: "Is the T61 still useable in 2016" or "is the W530 still useable in 2021" or is the 600e...so on and so forth.

Last: People getting help for fixing their old tech and a bunch of people showing off their old tech with people commenting about how they also owned that laptop back in the day.

I haven't seen a later stage to computers than this stage as there will always be people who post on forums without reading prior posts and as long as those computers exist, people can and will always show it off. Not saying its bad or anything, the people who ask questions without reading the forum already sometimes spark great conversations with people who are very knowledgeable and I think showing off tech is great. I like showing my tech too and its always fun to read and look at photos of old computers.

I recommend sourcing an IDTech, as it as genuinely IBM as you can get, as IDTech was IBM's house brand. You would essentially be building an IBM system that IBM themselves did not build. I personally love the IDTech UXGA panels the most, I find they are still incredible panels to this day and far superior to the LG panels which yellow and dim.

Wow I did not know that. Well I had seen a correlation with IBM and IDTech and how IBM used IDTech a lot but that's interesting.

I can see the merit in UXGA panels but the problem is that I can't find the cable for the UXGA panel or even any of the panels themselves anywhere and I'm afraid that if one does become available, it will be way out of my budget for this kind of stuff.

Also do you know why the LG panels and yellow while the IDTech does not? The ccfl backlighting? The structure itself?

[TPFanatic]

Poorer quality materials, and lack of striving for excellence. LG's longevity is sufficient for the warranty period. We're many years past that. The IDTechs meanwhile are from a time when IBM built things to last forever, and when IPS LCDs were a novel innovation. Many of them were sent to the International Space Station in ThinkPad A31ps. Very expensive to buy in a PC, it probably helped put IBM PC out of business, but the technology has evolved into cabin LCDs for jet airliners. RealBlackStuff closed that loop and put the jet LCDs back into ThinkPads.


I possibly still own a shell of R50p with its UXGA cable, back home. I am currently away from home, but I'll keep it in mind if you want it shipped over.

edit to add: I also have three 15" LG SXGA+ panels pulled out of ThinkPad T60. They are all quite yellow and sucky, but would get the job done. Along with a stack of 15" IDTech UXGA panels with bad backlights. A backlight replacement would restore them to former glory. The Incandescent flourescent tubes are hazmat. I'd need to do more research to figure out how to ship those sorts of things safely. I think you can still buy the panels NOS from China for around $100-$300. I'd consider that for a passion project.

Also look into impactcomputers in Florida. I've bought PC parts from them before. Good to inquire if they have any IBM panels left.

[dcfbf]

Wow that is very interesting! I thought that the LG panels would the better ones because they look better on paper but like everything, time determines which one is actually the best. But do you know when RealBlackStuff did that or where I can find the post or any information about how he did that? I have searched google for putting Jet lcds into thinkpads and this website for anything containing the word jet but I couldn't find anything about this. I just think its a very cool idea and I want to see how it looks like.

I possibly still own a shell of R50p with its UXGA cable, back home. I am currently away from home, but I'll keep it in mind if you want it shipped over.

edit to add: I also have three 15" LG SXGA+ panels pulled out of ThinkPad T60. They are all quite yellow and sucky, but would get the job done. Along with a stack of 15" IDTech UXGA panels with bad backlights. A backlight replacement would restore them to former glory. The Incandescent flourescent tubes are hazmat. I'd need to do more research to figure out how to ship those sorts of things safely. I think you can still buy the panels NOS from China for around $100-$300. I'd consider that for a passion project.

I'm not completely sure on all the details of what I am going to do to the R52 yet but if I need anything, could I pm you?

Also Impact Computers is actually so good though they have so many parts for so many computers its actually crazy. Do you know what they mean by "refurbished"? On their website I see that they said it is grade A cleaned and packaged though it may have minor blemishes. But that could mean different things coming from different people so I just want to know.

[TPFanatic]

In my experience with Impact Computers, I bought 15.6" IPS WQHD panels pulled out of gaming laptops, to be used in my W530 QHD mod. Impact must have removed the panels from gaming laptops, a process which somewhat blemished the tape around the panels, and they repaired those blemishes with new tape.

The jet LCDs... it's a misnomer I'm using. I believe they were BOE Hydis UXGA panels with an LED backlight, and the LCD connector itself on the LCD was reversed or something compared to a normal LCD. RealBlackStuff produced and sold modified cables and inverters so the panels would work in ThinkPads. I don't believe he is in the business anymore, but he can chime in on that.

At this point I'd settle for the nicest IDTech panel.

Feel free to hit me up at any time about R50p UXGA parts, and IDTech UXGA. I wound up scavenging pretty crappy C-grade IDTech UXGAs out of my old T42ps, and installed them in my T60, R61 Frankenpad, and T61 Frankenpad. They work, but they're very imperfect. Yanking a panel out, or sending you a whole laptop, is not out of the question. It's just a matter of logistics as I'm in college and the laptops are miles away, and I'm also sentimental about my stuff... but I'm at the point in my life where it's time to let things go to the next generation who can take the passion further. If my junkyard can keep the passion alive in more spirited blood, I am happy.

[dcfbf]

Oh nice that seems to be good then. I can buy from them without too much worry, plus they apparently have 30 day free like warranty on the refurbished stuff too.

Ah so that is why I couldn't find anything about jet LCDs. having LED backlighting should fix all the problems associated with these old panels right? with the yellowing and the dimming. I have read about people using a thin LED strip in place of the ccfl and I'd assume that is similar to what RealBlackStuff did with his LCDs.

Yeah I was already planning on getting an IDTech panel as those are the most available to me from what I can see.

But anyways I really appreciate all the help and responding fast on this topic that far out compassed the original topic that I was trying to ask for. I went from not completely sure on what I was going to buy to basically mapping out everything that I am going to do with the R52 in just 3 days which is honestly shocking.


Thanks for the offer by the way. I have amassed quite the junkyard for myself in around 6 years doing this hobby and I hold sentimental value for all of them so I understand what you are saying. They may be considered trash to some but they are my trash and that's enough to make me hold on to as many of them as I can get as treasure.

[TPFanatic]

Retrofitting an LED strip in place of a CCFL tube in an originally-CCFL-backlit Panel is a "conversion." This is different from what RealBlackStuff would do.

RealBlackStuff would mod, into ThinkPads, what were originally-LED-backlit Panels. He called them "ex-factory" to refer to this state as being LED-backlit by original design. A distinct category from "conversions." Just about every laptop LCD now is LED-backlit from the factory.

here is a web archive snapshot of RBS's website, TheBoardRoom: https://web.archive.org/web/20221024045 ... room.info/

Here is the archive of his page on LED mods: https://web.archive.org/web/20211206123 ... mods4.html