Thinkpads Forum

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leadorg wrote:When i first pitched the idea for the ThinkPad Retro, i told David that we wanted Lenovo to design the perfect machine for us. He told me that it will cost about 2 to 3 million USD to design a ThinkPad from scratch, produce all the necessary plastic mouldings and test it for the necessary CE compliances.

Maybe instead of letting Lenovo design the ideal retro thinkpad, we should just pay for the design, and let Lenovo produce it for us. We keep the same chassis design for subsequent generation of CPU upgrades, etc.

David said he could even design the ThinkPad with butterfly keyboard.

nitrocaster wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:53 am

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leadorg wrote:When i first pitched the idea for the ThinkPad Retro, i told David that we wanted Lenovo to design the perfect machine for us. He told me that it will cost about 2 to 3 million USD to design a ThinkPad from scratch, produce all the necessary plastic mouldings and test it for the necessary CE compliances.

Maybe instead of letting Lenovo design the ideal retro thinkpad, we should just pay for the design, and let Lenovo produce it for us. We keep the same chassis design for subsequent generation of CPU upgrades, etc.

David said he could even design the ThinkPad with butterfly keyboard.

Why don't we make this simple. Get a T60p. Strip it down to its core components. Make molds. 51NB can make the mobos. At that point the two problems become the LCD and the Keyboard. Where to get those......

There. Development cost halfed.

It does not work that way.

T60p is old. In every single aspect. It has old docking connector, old display dimensions, old peripheral connectors. It's thick yet it doesn't have enough space for a decent battery. You just don't understand how much it is actually cost to build a laptop.

Yes, 51nb can kinda make the mobo. Without HMMs. And without support. And without 3-year warranty. And where are you going to get parts for your 51nb-retro-frankenpad in 5 years? See, I can easily buy new bottom case or keyboard bezel for X230 right now and it's been 5 years since it was released. Can I buy new parts for T61p now that easy? Not really. Is that what a real ThinkPad experience is? I dont think so.

Making moulds is expensive. No, very expensive. Getting custom LCDs is very expensive too. Do you really think you halved the development cost while still being able to deliver a good product which feels like a real ThinkPad?

Here I'm assuming that the Crowdfunded Thinkpad is a community project, without any link to Lenovo.

The display will have to be bought off-the-shelf.

One way to bypass the mould limitation might be to 3D print as many parts as possible. From what I understand, it is now possible to get good quality 3D printed parts, with the right combination of technology and materials.
This also partly solves the problem of spare parts. Each customer will receive the blueprints. Got a broken part ? Get it printed.

Problem is, not every place has a 3D printer, right?

axur-delmeria wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:30 am

Problem is, not every place has a 3D printer, right?

For the initial printing : there are industrial 3D printing machines which use can be contracted.

For the spare part printing : there are many on-demand printing services available right now. Even more and/or better as the years pass.

Summilux wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:05 am

Here I'm assuming that the Crowdfunded Thinkpad is a community project, without any link to Lenovo.

It can´t be a ThinkPad without any link to Lenovo.

There will never be a "Community ThinkPad", because actually designing a Notebook (that works well and isn´t a pile of ruble) is way too complicated and costly without the right expertise, manufacturing and technology. 51nb doesn´t make Notebooks, they make mainboards for existing Notebooks. And even those mainboards have many problems.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ <- This is an interesting project, for example. But its about a keyboard, not a Notebook, which is way more complicated than a keyboard. You can ask the creator of this project how complicated it is to actually get those keyboards made to his standards and how expensive that is.

The idea of lead_org is of course different and much more realistic - give Lenovo the money to design and produce a machine up front, so they don´t have to worry about sales. Lenovo has the technology, the engineers and production capabilities. And the ThinkPad design. Of course, even that happening is unrealistic, but its way more realistic than a ThinkPad designed and made by the community.

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:50 am

It can´t be a ThinkPad without any link to Lenovo.

Thinkpad in spirit, Classicpad or Classic in name, so that trademark isn't an issue.

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:50 am

There will never be a "Community ThinkPad", because actually designing a Notebook (that works well and isn´t a pile of ruble) is way too complicated and costly without the right expertise, manufacturing and technology. 51nb doesn´t make Notebooks, they make mainboards for existing Notebooks. And even those mainboards have many problems.

Why couldn't Wistron, Foxconn and Quanta validate the engineering and produce laptops of acceptable quality ? It's their core business.

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:50 am

The idea of lead_org is of course different and much more realistic - give Lenovo the money to design and produce a machine up front, so they don´t have to worry about sales. Lenovo has the technology, the engineers and production capabilities. And the ThinkPad design. Of course, even that happening is unrealistic, but its way more realistic than a ThinkPad designed and made by the community.

That's what I was thinking. If Lenovo couldn't be arsed to make a decent T25 and instead went for a T470-25, why would they even bother engaging with the community as thoroughly as a crowdfunding project requires ? They don't care about us.

I think I have said this before: What the Lenovo Management cares about is money. So, if the fans actually manage to collect enough money (which might be a few million US-dollars, so that will be difficult enough), maybe Lenovo would take it. There is no reason for them not to, money is money, no matter where it comes from.

The ThinkPad 25 is what it is because of the unpredictability of sales. You make an investment and then hope it pays off - its pretty much like gambling. Crowd-funding solves this problem by paying up-front, so the risk is eliminated. Of course, even in such a case, ThinkPad fans would have to agree first how such a crowdfunded ThinkPad would look like, which is unlikely.

Summilux wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:12 am

Why couldn't Wistron, Foxconn and Quanta validate the engineering and produce laptops of acceptable quality ? It's their core business.

Those manufacturers don´t actually make the parts of the laptops (at least not most of them), they assemble them.

Of course, you can pay them to assemble a cheapo laptop chassis with some cheapo keyboard you bought from a Chinese parts manufacturer and then slap in a 3:2 display...but thats not a ThinkPad, neither in name nor in spirit.

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:31 am

I think I have said this before: What the Lenovo Management cares about is money. So, if the fans actually manage to collect enough money (which might be a few million US-dollars, so that will be difficult enough), maybe Lenovo would take it. There is no reason for them not to, money is money, no matter where it comes from.

In this case, why didn't they turn the Thinkpad "Retro" into a crowdfunding campaign ? This idea hadn't reached them back then ?

And how can fans collect the money, if Lenovo isn't launching the crowdfunding campaign in the first place ? Either fans collect the money themselves, and that's for a community project ; or the project will be managed and manufactured by Lenovo, and it's Lenovo that should collect the money.

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:31 am

Of course, even in such a case, ThinkPad fans would have to agree first how such a crowdfunded ThinkPad would look like, which is unlikely.

It's pretty simple : just make a survey. But don't sidestep the questions and don't fake the results. Basically don't let Lenovo handle the survey.

Summilux wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:12 am

Those manufacturers don´t actually make the parts of the laptops (at least not most of them), they assemble them.

Of course, you can pay them to assemble a cheapo laptop chassis with some cheapo keyboard you bought from a Chinese parts manufacturer and then slap in a 3:2 display...but thats not a ThinkPad, neither in name nor in spirit.

My understanding is that Quanta, for instance, is relatively vertically integrated and handles design and parts sourcing. So if they don't make the parts themselves, they can be trusted to get the parts done at the agreed-upon specs.

As you said above, it's about the money. Made in China doesn't have to be cheap. Pay a decent price for the engineering and part making, and the result could be decent. I'd be happy if the quality could equal that of my X220, whose plastics are cracked and broken - so you see, the quality set by Lenovo shouldn't be that difficult to match.

My thinking was to actually get Lenovo design a 12 inches 3:2 machine with butterfly keyboard. We can use the same design for ULV quad core and dual core model.

David was open to the suggestion, i am sure i can pitch the idea to the ThinkPad management if people are serious about it.

A modern day 701c.

Summilux wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:26 am

In this case, why didn't they turn the Thinkpad "Retro" into a crowdfunding campaign ? This idea hadn't reached them back then ?

Probably not, but I think they key point here is this:

Ibthink wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:31 am

Of course, even in such a case, ThinkPad fans would have to agree first how such a crowdfunded ThinkPad would look like, which is unlikely.

Summilux wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:26 am

It's pretty simple : just make a survey. But don't sidestep the questions and don't fake the results. Basically don't let Lenovo handle the survey.

Oh yeah, pretty simple, until you get a 1/2-1/2 split (or even better - 1/3-1/3-1/3) on some fundamental issue, like... oh, screen size. Then what do you do? Someone has to drive the project and make the decisions, and no matter what they choose, a whole lot will be unhappy.

Summilux wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:12 am

My understanding is that Quanta, for instance, is relatively vertically integrated and handles design and parts sourcing. So if they don't make the parts themselves, they can be trusted to get the parts done at the agreed-upon specs.

And then you integrate the latest LAN controller from Intel / Realtek / Marvell (all according to specs, of course), turn it on, and, whoops - it doesn't work. Or actually it works, but 50% of the time it stops working after suspend and resume. Then what do you do? Call Intel / Realtek / Marvell and ask for support? "Who the hell are you?" will be their first (and often, last) question. And that's even assuming that there will be someone somewhere to run these tests and catch these problems. I seriously doubt that ODMs like Quanta do system-level testing.

There is a whole lot more going on to get a working system to market than you imagine.

lead_org wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:37 pm

My thinking was to actually get Lenovo design a 12 inches 3:2 machine with butterfly keyboard. We can use the same design for ULV quad core and dual core model.

David was open to the suggestion, i am sure i can pitch the idea to the ThinkPad management if people are serious about it.

Honestly? As a concept piece it can be very neat. I would probably contribute some funding to it as well. But I'd rather you just pitched the idea that they make more main line models with the 7-row keyboard. It sounds like the technical gap here is basically zero.

lead_org wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:37 pm

My thinking was to actually get Lenovo design a 12 inches 3:2 machine with butterfly keyboard.

That sounds awesome! The butterfly keyboard would allow for a full-size layout instead of the crippled layout of current 12-inch and 13-inch ThinkPads (like the X270, the X1 Tablet or the Yoga 370) and older 12-inch 4:3 ThinkPads (like the X4x and the X6x series).

I'm just curious if there are any matte 12" 3:2 screens readily available? For instance, the AUO B120YAN01 (which is used in conjunction with a touch digitizer in the Miix 720) looks quite good, but can you get a matte version off-the-shelf or would that be a custom order as well?

I also have some concerns regarding the long-term reliability of the butterfly keyboard mechanism.

The butterfly keyboard is cool, but just a gimmick. For those who had the 701C in 1995, they know it was a pain in the. It just jammed alot.

12.5 widescreen can fit a full-size keyboard (X220 anyone?).

The 701C was slightly less than 10 inches wide.

axur-delmeria wrote:12.5 widescreen can fit a full-size keyboard (X220 anyone?).

The 701C was slightly less than 10 inches wide.

Um..X61 didnt have a full keyboard. That could have also benefitted.

Thinkpad4by3 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:47 pm

Um..X61 didnt have a full keyboard. That could have also benefitted.

The X61 had an "almost full" keyboard. I disagree that it would benefit.

The 701 is 9.7 inches wide. The Butterfly keyboard extends almost an inch from each side.

The X61 is around 10.5 inches wide. a Butterfly would only extend half an inch from each side.

Should this take off, I suggest to call it ThingPad.
Sounds good, eh?

dr_st wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:58 pm

Oh yeah, pretty simple, until you get a 1/2-1/2 split (or even better - 1/3-1/3-1/3) on some fundamental issue, like... oh, screen size. Then what do you do? Someone has to drive the project and make the decisions, and no matter what they choose, a whole lot will be unhappy.

The problem with T470-25 surveys arose less because of the splits, and more of the bad faith involved.
If the project manager does his job transparently, launches a second survey if there's a sticky point (after giving time for people to ponder their choices), and finally makes a choice if there's still a standstill - there might be regrets, but no sour grapes.

Summilux wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:12 am

There is a whole lot more going on to get a working system to market than you imagine.

Oh I don't doubt that system integration and validation is no trivial task ! And that's a lengthy process. But I also surmise that it's possible to contract this work to engineering firms or freelance consultants specialised in this field.

lead_org wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:37 pm

My thinking was to actually get Lenovo design a 12 inches 3:2 machine with butterfly keyboard. We can use the same design for ULV quad core and dual core model.

David was open to the suggestion, i am sure i can pitch the idea to the ThinkPad management if people are serious about it.

A modern day 701c.

Take my money !

But would Lenovo have enough goodwill for that ? I'm very doubtful, but if you think there's a decent chance, by all means please talk to your contacts at Lenovo.

You should also check with D. Hill if reported issues such as :

Thinkpad4by3 wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:09 pm

The butterfly keyboard is cool, but just a gimmick. For those who had the 701C in 1995, they know it was a pain in the. It just jammed alot.

could be alleviated with a modern butterfly design.

Lenovo will never make a butterfly keyboard and I don't want or need one.

All we need is a decent 7 row keyboard on more Thinkpads.

We need to think how we can make it easier for Lenovo like not having a trackpad which the majority on this form don't use anyway.

The larger Mac-like trackpad was the death knell for the 7 row keyboard.

shawross wrote:Lenovo will never make a butterfly keyboard and I don't want or need one.

All we need is a decent 7 row keyboard on more Thinkpads.

We need to think how we can make it easier for Lenovo like not having a trackpad which the majority on this form don't use anyway.

The larger Mac-like trackpad was the death knell for the 7 row keyboard.

The mac like trackpad was the death knell for the 6 row keyboard too. Apple hasnt learned anything from the X1 Gen2.

axur-delmeria wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:43 pm

12.5 widescreen can fit a full-size keyboard (X220 anyone?).

The 701C was slightly less than 10 inches wide.

It looks like the X220's full-size keyboard (28,5 cm) is slightly narrower than the entire width of the Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (29,2 cm) - 12,3" 3:2 screen and bezels included. Maybe that could be enough of a leeway to fit a regular keyboard as opposed to a butterfly one.

However if the machine is to have very thin bezels (with a width of say 27 cm), then said keyboard wouldn't fit anymore and a butterfly mechanism could prove helpful. Although its deployment would be limited.

That aside, I'm thinking of the non-technical benefits of embedding a butterfly keyboard :
1) It's a "novelty" factor which could win over some of those who favour bigger screens, and would normally not buy a smaller laptop.
2) It could be "different" enough for Lenovo to accept crowdfunding it, as in, "our fans want a toy and we're good guys so we'll grant them their wish - but for serious work, look at our regular line of laptops".

RealBlackStuff wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:40 pm

Should this take off, I suggest to call it ThingPad.
Sounds good, eh?

How about ThingPast, because, duh, now that's really retro

In all fairness, your best bet is 3D printing and sharing the files. I don't know how precise 3D printers are, and how economically viable it is, but if you can take an existing mobo and just a more fluid base then you can make.. practically everything. But then we're still limited on screens and availability of parts, and assembling all that is going to cost quite a bit of money.

This idea was mainly inspired by the EOMA68 and el-sahef's awesome i3/i7 mod to the 600.

That's also what I was thinking.

3D printing could reduce the number of needed moulds. Making the files open-source could also ensure an eventual maintainability - even better than today. Instead of having to hunt for parts on Internet and computers to scavenge from, just print your part at home or send the file to a printing service.

Even better : it'd allow the community to improve the laptop's design over time, and allow for self-made upgrades even decades later.

Saving on assembly costs could be done by delivering the laptop semi-assembled, with only the most critical components being assembled. As long as there's a good instruction manual, and even better, a video, it should be acceptable. Full assembly could be done at a cost.

lead_org wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:37 pm

My thinking was to actually get Lenovo design a 12 inches 3:2 machine with butterfly keyboard. We can use the same design for ULV quad core and dual core model.

David was open to the suggestion, i am sure i can pitch the idea to the ThinkPad management if people are serious about it.

A modern day 701c.

I would probably buy this in a heartbeat. I don't care who think it's a gimmick.

nitrocaster wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:34 am

Yes, 51nb can kinda make the mobo. Without HMMs. And without support. And without 3-year warranty.

And without the docking capability. And more likely than not, without Thunderbolt.

lead_org wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:37 pm

My thinking was to actually get Lenovo design a 12 inches 3:2 machine with butterfly keyboard. We can use the same design for ULV quad core and dual core model.

David was open to the suggestion, i am sure i can pitch the idea to the ThinkPad management if people are serious about it.

A modern day 701c.

You got to be kidding ! Lenovo did a pretty ... conservative ... job with the T25, and you think they'll do a quad-core, 3:2 display machine with a butterfly keyboard ? I'm pretty perplexed on the touch-screen choice for the T25, never mind aspirations for such an exotic little machine. OK, here's a more realistic (as in not going to happen, rather than not going happen ever, ever) option : the nice keyboard in the X1 Carbon. Make it a mm or two thicker if that must be done to get the keyboard in. That's it.

Edit : or anything where there's less dead space around screen and keyboard in a similar manner to the X1C. T480, T480s, X380, whatever !

can we just get an X25?

12" 3:2
X220 Keyboard
QC ULV Kaby Lake
Intergrated graphics
Upgradeable RAM

That X25 would be a fine project to back, too