AHCI and SSD

[burns334]

Evening folks,

I've now got my Crucial M4 up and running in my T60. I'm running XP which I migrated from a fresh install on my old HDD and turned off paging, indexing, prefetch, hibernation and made sure there was no scheduled defrag, all seems well. Now do I want to enable AHCI? I see a fairly detailed explaination on Aoitenshi blog?
http://aoitenshi-blog.blogspot.com/2012 ... oller.html

burns

[Cigarguy]

AHCI should have been enabled before installing the OS onto the SSD. Being that the T60 is only capable of SATA I speed I would not bother. Having said that you might try it in BIOS, worse thing is that it won't boot the OS. In that case switch back to current mode and carry on.

[dr_st]

I'm running XP which I migrated from a fresh install on my old HDD and turned off paging, indexing, prefetch, hibernation

In other words - turned off a bunch of useful stuff which is designed to make the OS faster and more user-friendly. Why?

Migrating from a HDD install is a delicate business. Have you made sure that the partition is aligned? Unaligned partitions are known to have noticeable performance impact when using SSDs.

Regarding AHCI - turn it on in the BIOS. If XP bluescreens - you need to go back to IDE / Compatible mode, install the Intel chipset driver, then switch back to AHCI. I'll try finding a detailed instruction set later (gotta get off this train now!).

Edit:
This post by clasys details the instructions to install the AHCI driver. The second part refers to adding it to an existing XP installation.

[burns334]

dr_st, I turned those functions off after reading about SSD's and the things I needed to do after it was up and running, I think Real Black Stuff recommended most of those functions.

In addition I did align the partition and it seems fine.

I did try turning AHCI from the bios and it did indeed blue screen. I've read that having the AHCI activated is good for some added performance on any T60, is this true?

burns

[dr_st]

Well, at least I'd turn the paging and hibernation back on. Indexing/prefetch may not give any tangible benefits with an SSD anyways.

AHCI may give some performance improvements. But don't expect miracles. If you follow the instructions in the post I linked to, you can get it working without problems. I've done just that on my T60 when I installed XP a few years ago.

[miro_gt]

In other words - turned off a bunch of useful stuff which is designed to make the OS faster and more user-friendly. Why?

...

^ you never had SSD before ? ... These things were designed to make the OS faster while running on HDD, thus are not suitable with SSDs and will only make the SSD life shorter.

---

to the original question: do indeed use AHCI mode. First install drivers, then switch to AHCI mode in BIOS, and then upon restart Windows will find new hardware. Otherwise it will bluescreen at boot.

[dr_st]

miro_gt, please read fully before replying...

I already said that indexing/prefetch may be left off. Paging and hibernation, on the other hand, have nothing to with HDDs or SSDs per se. The only reasons to turn them off is if you have a tiny drive and are trying to save some precious gigabytes.

And you gave the same answer to the original question that's already been given.

[miro_gt]

yes but you recommended turning paging and hibernation back on, and both of those are unnecessary shortening the SSD life.

- paging exist to cover up the problem of not having enough RAM, so if sufficient amount of RAM is present then there's no need to leave that on. In fact, the average user will be fine with 2GB RAM and no paging most of the times, and 4GB covers every 32 bit OS.

- hibernation exist to help shorten boot up times with HDDs, but is completely unneeded with SSD as boot ups are significantly faster anyways. This has hard hit on SSD writes as the hibernation of say 4GB RAM takes more than 4GB internal writes on the SSD most of the times.

If you suggest to leave the hibernation on then you're really missing on basic understanding on how SSDs operate. I can accept leaving paging on only if the software used on the computer requires large amounts of RAM that are not possible to be installed otherwise.

P.S. why do you think I haven't red fully before replying ? ... repeating here and there is a good thing, gives prospective of more people agreeing on the subject.

[GACrabill]

And now a different perspective.

yes but you recommended turning paging and hibernation back on, and both of those are unnecessary shortening the SSD life.

I think that this will become an old wives tale someday (SSDs like the Samsung 830 may outlast 90% of all HDDs).

- paging exist to cover up the problem of not having enough RAM, so if sufficient amount of RAM is present then there's no need to leave that on. In fact, the average user will be fine with 2GB RAM and no paging most of the times

Average users don't buy SSDs.
I can guarantee that my T40p with Win7, 2GB, and a 128GB SSD will start getting memory shortage messages as soon as I have around a dozen open IE tabs (and an email client) if I turn off paging (attempted this for 2-3 days and it was intolerable).

- hibernation exist to help shorten boot up times with HDDs, but is completely unneeded with SSD as boot ups are significantly faster anyways. This has hard hit on SSD writes as the hibernation of say 4GB RAM takes more than 4GB internal writes on the SSD most of the times.

There is no "hit" if one doesn't use the "hibernate" function. Having a hibernate file is a valuable feature. We use Standby every night, and use Hibernate twice per week when traveling so that all current "work-in-progress" is available upon boot-up.

If you suggest to leave the hibernation on then you're really missing on basic understanding on how SSDs operate. I can accept leaving paging on only if the software used on the computer requires large amounts of RAM that are not possible to be installed otherwise.

I am pretty sure that I understand hibernation and SSDs.
The bigger issue with SSDs is to make sure that there is plenty of free space ... don't buy a 64GB SSD and then run it 90% full all of the time ... that's like begging for a premature SSD failure.

Using "SSDLife Free", the SSDs in our T40p (6 months of SSD use) and T60 (2 years of SSD use) still show projected life until 04/2021. I would not count on most HDDs to last another 8 years (if I were to assume that a T40p would still be in use at that time).

Paging isn't a BAD thing.
Hibernation isn't a BAD thing.
Downloading tons of music and movies to an SSD daily may be a BAD thing.
Running an SSD with only 10% free space is a BAD thing.

[aoitenshi]

I did try turning AHCI from the bios and it did indeed blue screen. I've read that having the AHCI activated is good for some added performance on any T60, is this true?

burns

Yup ..
I've got the BSOD screen when tried to activate AHCI after fresh install of WinXP
The workaround is install the AHCI driver while in Compatibility mode and then restart the T60, set up the BIOS to AHCI and let your T60 install the AHCI driver by itself

I've tried using the slipstream method, F6 button when installing WinXP for the first time, none worked for me (or maybe I missed a step )

AHCI is the basic requirement when using SSD, since it will improve your SSD's performance a lot and make your SSD's life longer ..

AHCI will help your SSD even if you don't switch off paging, hibernation, prefetch and other optimization

AHCI will improve the 4K read speed, beside the sequential read/write speed (owh, it will also increase the boot time )

[burns334]

Yup ..
The workaround is install the AHCI driver while in Compatibility mode and then restart the T60, set up the BIOS to AHCI and let your T60 install the AHCI driver by itself

aoitenshe, is it really that simple? All the stuff I've read goes from be careful you don't brick you machine to pages of steps that you know something won't work with.

I have read you how to and was leaning towards doing it your way

PS should I also AHCI on my non SSD T60?

[aoitenshi]

aoitenshe, is it really that simple? All the stuff I've read goes from be careful you don't brick you machine to pages of steps that you know something won't work with.

I have read you how to and was leaning towards doing it your way

PS should I also AHCI on my non SSD T60?

Yup ...
I've done it on my old spinning hard drive ... the AHCI performance on spinning hard drive is not that great compared to SSDs

The only thing to watch for is the selection for your chipset ... I've made mistake by selecting ICH8 (not ICH8M ) and when my T61 reboot, the BSOD appeared
So make sure you know your chipset when installing the AHCI driver on WinXP
---

P.S.
I have no idea how to activate AHCI on Z77 motherboard when using WinXP, tried the same method for my T61, selected the correct chipset, but always BSOD after reboot ....... so it's IDE for WinXP on Z77 motherboard .....

[dr_st]

yes but you recommended turning paging and hibernation back on, and both of those are unnecessary shortening the SSD life.

Yes, and I still do. You didn't use to complain that these features shorten the lives of hard drives, did you?

paging exist to cover up the problem of not having enough RAM, so if sufficient amount of RAM is present then there's no need to leave that on. In fact, the average user will be fine with 2GB RAM and no paging most of the times, and 4GB covers every 32 bit OS.

Wrong. Even 4GB can be easily exhausted depending on what you do. And a T60 supports only 3GB. And even though you may be fine "most of the time", the rest of the time, lack of memory will lead to your applications crashing or the entire OS struggling to work properly. That's not how I want to run my machines.

There are a couple of others unpleasant effects from having no pagefile, such as the inability to save crash dumps if they happen.

- hibernation exist to help shorten boot up times with HDDs, but is completely unneeded with SSD as boot ups are significantly faster anyways.

Wrong again. Hibernation exists to allow you to turn the computer off and then turn it on with all the apps open exactly the way you left them.

If you suggest to leave the hibernation on then you're really missing on basic understanding on how SSDs operate. I can accept leaving paging on only if the software used on the computer requires large amounts of RAM that are not possible to be installed otherwise.

I think I understand more than you believe I do. It's not rocket science. I just have a different philosophy than you. I think that "disable pagefile and hibernation to extend SSD life" are just another pair of bad advice that are no different than thousands other bad advice that one can find on the internet, and that people tend to regurgitate.

1) Nobody has ever shown any numbers to support the theory that all these extra writes will significantly shorten the life of the SSD, or even that de-facto they have a worse effect on SSDs than on mechanical drives.

2) The computer exists to serve me, not the other way around. I don't agree with the philosophy of inconveniencing oneself so that one's precious hardware has a chance to live a little longer. Who cares how long it lives if it doesn't benefit me? Maybe I should just keep my SSD in the box and never use it, so that it lives longer? Or maybe I'll just put it into the same freezer where I keep all my laptop batteries, because surely I don't want to use them as it will shorten their lives.

Sorry for the rant. Like I said, I just can't pass certain suggestions which I deem as bad/pointless when I see them. You may feel that I'm wrong, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[ajkula66]

2) The computer exists to serve me, not the other way around. I don't agree with the philosophy of inconveniencing oneself so that one's precious hardware has a chance to live a little longer. Who cares how long it lives if it doesn't benefit me?

^^^^^^ This. Squared.

In OP's particular case, running XP which doesn't support TRIM on a M4 which in turn doesn't have its own garbage removal services is a questionable enough idea...and all of the "paging file vs. none" and "hibernation vs. none" dilemmae fade to gray very quickly in that light.

[burns334]

Ajkula, everywhere I look about the Crucial M4 it states that it does indeed have "garbage collection", could you please explain what point I am missing.

Thanks
burns

[ajkula66]

Ajkula, everywhere I look about the Crucial M4 it states that it does indeed have "garbage collection", could you please explain what point I am missing.

Thanks
burns

Intel and Samsung drives (maybe some others as well, I can't say) have programs that allow you, the user, to actually run a garbage removal program.

Crucial C300 and M4 do not offer this option, but rely on TRIM instead.

With TRIM enabled, they most certainly are capable of "garbage collection".

However, there's no TRIM in XP or Vista.

[burns334]

folks, I've certainly been searching for quite awhile now and I can't find the SATA driver for my T60. My T60 is a 2007 WV2 with the ATI mobility x1300. When I use the Intel identifier program it says my chipset is a 945GM/GMS/940GML. The Intel site is confusing and none of the listing seem like the right one. Can someone point me to the correct file, location or info I need to find it?

Thanks
burns

[dr_st]

http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/downloa ... D=DS000795

[burns334]

dr_st, that was fast and thanks and it certainly looks like the right file, I searched for hours and did not come across that one. I checked the readme and it says it's good for XP Professional and all looks right so I downloaded and attempted to install the driver. The file created the IMSM folder in the WIN folder so all seemed normal but when I go into the device manager the new AHCI controller does not appear under the IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers. I did not unzip anything as it did not appear zipped. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks
burns

[ajkula66]

After installing the driver, did you go back to BIOS and switch the mode to AHCI?

[burns334]

akj and dr_st, I did go back and set it to AHCI and it blue screened. I think maybe I never got the new driver installed. It offered and option of ICH7M/MDH SATA AHCI controller and it said it cannot verify that it is compatible. I guess I don't know if that is the same as the ICH7M/U.

[aoitenshi]

dr_st, that was fast and thanks and it certainly looks like the right file, I searched for hours and did not come across that one. I checked the readme and it says it's good for XP Professional and all looks right so I downloaded and attempted to install the driver. The file created the IMSM folder in the WIN folder so all seemed normal but when I go into the device manager the new AHCI controller does not appear under the IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers. I did not unzip anything as it did not appear zipped. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks
burns

The IMSM folder is the target folder for installing AHCI driver for your T60 ...
If you follow my guide on my blog, you will end up selecting the chipset for your AHCI controller (I think it's ICH7M-U )

But if it's not ICH7M-U, then the other ICH7M-MDH ... and you'll get a blue screen after the BIOS switched to AHCI
Well, you know what they said, "No Pain, No Gain"

[dr_st]

Follow the instructions:

NOTE: If you select AHCI for Serial ATA (SATA) in the BIOS Setup Utility before installing Intel Matrix Storage Manager Driver, your computer will not respond; it will only display a blue screen.

Power off the computer.
Power on the computer.
Press the F1 key to enter the BIOS Setup Utility when the ThinkPad logo is seen on the screen. The BIOS Setup Utility menu will be displayed. If a password prompt appears, type the correct password.
Select Config.
Select Serial ATA (SATA).
Select Compatibility.
Press the F10 key to save the new setup, and then select Yes.
Restart the computer.
Install Windows XP and Service Pack 2.
Download Intel Matrix Storage Manager Driver from the Web site and extract the driver to C:\DRIVERS\WIN\IMSM.
Go to C:\DRIVERS\WIN\IMSM\PREPARE, and double-click install.cmd.
Power off and on the computer.
Press the F1 key to enter the BIOS Setup Utility when the ThinkPad logo is seen on the screen. The BIOS Setup Utility menu will be displayed. If a password prompt appears, type the correct password.
Select Config.
Select Serial ATA (SATA).
Select AHCI.
Press the F10 key to save the new setup, and then select Yes. The computer will reboot and Windows XP will start.
The "Welcome to the Found New Hardware Wizard" appears. Click No, not this time, and then click Next.
Select Install from a list or specific location (Advanced), and then click Next.
Select Search for the best driver in these locations. Then select Include this location in the search:, specify the path, C:\DRIVERS\WIN\IMSM, and click Next. The "Completing the Found New Hardware Wizard" appears.
Click Finish.
When the "System Settings Change" window appears, click Yes. The computer restarts.

[burns334]

Should this happen ie use the wrong ICH7, how do you get out of this blue screen, just switch the mode back in the BIOS?

burns

[dr_st]

I guess.

[ThinkRob]

Paging (and, for that matter, hibernation) have really very little to do with the whole SSD vs. HDD issue. The recommendation of disabling them stems not from the fact that they're unnecessary when using an SSD (they're not -- they're designed to serve completely different purposes) but rather that one's goal when using an SSD should be to minimize writes to the drive.

That shouldn't be one's goal.

That advice stems from 2008 or so when the existing affordable SSDs generally sucked. Minimizing writes on some drives was necessary due to buggy controllers with massive write amplification problems (I'm looking at you JMicron) and controllers which would stall horribly when faced with multiple concurrent writes (JMicron, again...)

It's no longer 2008, and pretty much any modern (2010+) SSD that you can buy will be just fine no matter what you throw at it (exceptions exist, naturally, for those of us with *really* extraordinary workloads... but if you're in that category you already know all this.)

Unfortunately, this advice has become some SSD users' gris-gris and often gets thrown around without actually understanding why it came about or why it's no longer applicable.

So yes, leave them enabled.

Indexing and prefetching, on the other hand are of dubious utility. Prefetching is almost certainly a net loss so you can kill that. Indexing is probably a loss too, but not because a good indexing scheme is a bad idea even with an SSD -- it's not, as Spotlight, Beagle, etc. demonstrate -- but rather that Windows XP's implementation sucks.

[spuddog]

Running an SSD with only 10% free space is a BAD thing.

GACrabill :where did you get this information? Is their some explaination?

Thanks
Scott

[GACrabill]

Running an SSD with only 10% free space is a BAD thing.

GACrabill :where did you get this information? Is their some explaination?

I can't remember where I saw it.

But there was a similar rule for HDDs due to the excessive fragmentation which would occur, thus causing extensive arm movement, resulting in noticeable HDD slowdowns.

The SSD situation is different. With 10% free space on an SSD, the theory says that any free block/sector/? gets written to four times as often over the course of time as it does on an SSD with 40% free space. Does this mean that a 40% free space SSD will last four times as long as a 10% free space SSD ? ... who really knows. If you do very little writing to a 10% free space SSD, this might be a non-issue for you. If you do normal writing to the same spots over and over and over again on a 5% free space SSD, will it last as long as a 40% free space SSD where the writes are well balanced across 8 times as much available space ? ... I wouldn't think so.

I bought my SSDs for speed and long-term reliability vs HDDs. Concentrating all of the "bit-flipping" to a small 10% free space area does not fit in with my long-term reliability need.

[cadillacmike68]

I have T61s (and T30 which are ancient and are not part of this), so some of this isn't fully applicable, but most of it is:

The computer exists to serve me, not the other way around. I don't agree with the philosophy of inconveniencing oneself so that one's precious hardware has a chance to live a little longer. ...

While I agree with the first clause, I really don't agree with the rest. However, my philosophy on computers it a little different.

I don't like them doing things behind my back, so nothing auto-updates.

For me. Indexing is a waste of disk space and CPU. I know where the stuff on my computer is, and I Don't need winblows to find it for me.

Hibernation is a similar waste of disk space for me. when I shut the machine down, Everything gets closed. A lot of times I'm not on an always on connection or even connected, so i don't need internet extorter getting hung up trying to find a page that is impossible to get to, so it (and firefox) do not start and the home page is about:blank. Same with the cams, skype and magicjack. Off until I decide to start them. I really hate it when i forget to pull that stupid magic jack off the USB when i start the computer. Booting takes 5 times as long. Eventually I'll get a proper VOIP solution.

Now paging that is something I'd have to look at. I'd be concerned with constant writes to the page file, but having the machine lock up due to a memory shortage isn't my cup of tea either. Not sure if w7 can put the page fine on a noon boot drive, but that would be ideal. Unix / linux do this, where the hell is microsoft on this???

Prefetch is something i would leave on. I think it's a CPU function and is more read in nature - unless I'm totally off base, which I usually am.

When I migrate the T61s to SSD, they will have a large secondary HDD of 500 to 1,000 GB always in the UltraBay so I'll migrate all the data files there. The boot SSD will only keep the programs. If i could figure out a way to have the settings files on the D: drive I'd do that. I have advanced docks to place the optical drive in.

All my T61s (currently using HDDs) have AHCI on. They are a factory load (from a single source) but the driver name doesn't match the one on Lenovo.com. I'm leery of updating it. but will save off the old driver and try it out. someone in this thread has an excellent web page on how to do this.

This is just my opinion, but I have NEVER had to re-install a windows installation because of screwing it up somewhere down the line. HDD failures (and the boss lady's not mine), yes, but not due to a botched app install or update.

[dr_st]

I don't think we are in disagreement. We just find different things important for our convenience.

You prefer to do full shutdowns, I often prefer to hibernate and come back to it the way it was.

Yes, you can put the paging file on a non-boot drive (even XP will let you do that). With that said, moving the pagefile to the HDD may be somewhat detrimental to performance, since small random writes is where SSDs shine.