ReactOS

[atomMan]

i need a victim since i don't have a TP yet

saw several posts from BigWarpGuy about installing ReactOS, but not many details. i'm wondering if anyone has/is willing to check out the .3 v and provide more details?

http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

[AlphaKilo470]

I've ran their latest release under an emulator on my ThinkPad 600 running XP and the OS is very promising. While the emulator slows things down a bit, the OS was pretty usable and clean. It's not yet ready as a standalone OS yet but it's definitely getting there. The project has gone farther in the last four years than the first 6. One of the downloads they have available is a copy of Bochs emulator for Windows with a ReactOS HD image if you want to try the software out without nuking any of your computers.

[atomMan]

Thanks for the info! I realize it's not ready for prime-time yet, but i just wanted to get an idea on how far it's come along.

[Droider]

ReactOS 0.4.1.3 just released. Anyone give it a try ?

Edit : I just burned a cd and installed it on my Latitude D505 in spare hdd. All devices including the touchpad were missing drivers. That was the moment of ending my reactos trial.

[789]

the moment of ending my ReactOS trial.

Similar feelings. I attempted to boot the "live" version, then went to their forum and learned that 20 years later they still don't have something that can be tried on a real-life computer.

[Omineca]

I remember watching this project around 2005 and thinking that a working OS was only a few years away....

[dr_st]

Yeah, well. Try BolgenOS next time.

[atagunov]

Yeah, well. Try BolgenOS next time.

With all due respect is Bolgen anything really to pay attention to? From a quick look it seems like another Linux distribution? We have Ubuntu for that

What I do have some hopes of is Qubes OS. I may try it out once I get X2100.. Don't want to put it onto lower-spec machines to avoid disappointment. In my understanding Qubes OS is XEN hypervisor adapted for desktop use. It should be able to provide the highest degree of isolation between running apps. Each app sort of comes with its own micro-os. So say some bit of malware cannot contaminate anything beyond that OS normally.

So what I'd really like is a decent Windows environment within Qubes OS. Something that React OS wanted to provide but limited to a Qubes OS sandbox. Okay hopefully I'll see what Qubes can actually offer me in that regard around New Year's break.

[dr_st]

With all due respect is Bolgen anything really to pay attention to? From a quick look it seems like another Linux distribution? We have Ubuntu for that

It's a joke that only people in the know (mostly with Russian background) will understand.

[atagunov]

It's a joke

Gotcha! Quite funny indeed

[789]

I remember watching this project around 2005 and thinking that a working OS was only a few years away....

The Windows 2000 source code was released in 2004. The ReactOS crew learned from it what in sixteen years ?

Has anyone learned anything from the Windows source code ? I wish someone would at least re-make the NT 4 explorer.exe.

[atagunov]

The Windows 2000 source code was released in 2004. The ReactOS crew learned from it what in sixteen years ?

Hmm.. was it actually released or leaked? If ReactOS want to ship a product that can be used without legal issues they have to avoid those Windows 2000 sources as if they were contagious!

The best they can do is have one person read Windows 2000 code, write down some kind of notes and pass them over to those who do code. The first person would need to never add anything to ReacOS sources and people in the 2nd team would need to have never read Windows 2000 sources. It's possible they'd need to have lawyers check the notes.. Even then I'm not sure if they would be 200% legally safe. Using the leaked sources at all.. Well I'm not a lawyer myself so I don't know.

[789]

But have they learned from the source how Windows functions and how to write something that is compatible with XP ?

[axur-delmeria]

But have they learned from the source how Windows functions and how to write something that is compatible with XP ?

The ReactOS developers cannot read the Windows 2000 source code because it was released illegally. If they did read the code, they will be the target of Microsoft's lawyers, which will result in the end of the ReactOS project altogether.

As fellow user atagunov has mentioned, someone else has to read that code, write up a specification how it works, then have the ReacOS developers write code based on that specification. That's called clean-room approach to reverse-engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

[789]

The ReactOS developers cannot

Yes, they couldn't, even if they tripped over some source code.
In the mean time, over at Win-Raid they are working on modifiying XP to install on 64-core ThreadRipper. From the looks of it, I will be able to use NT 5.2 (an OS very compatible with XP) for the rest of my life. If the past 20 years is any indication of future development, there will not be a functioning ReactOS in my life-time.

[atagunov]

In the mean time, over at Win-Raid they are working on modifiying XP to install on 64-core ThreadRipper

Hiya, if you don't mind me asking what's ThreadRipper? And what kind of license would that XP be under? None? Or will it be "bring your own XP license and slap our mods on top"?

If the past 20 years is any indication of future development, there will not be a functioning ReactOS in my life-time.

Sadly I share your pessimistic view..

[Screamer]

Hiya, if you don't mind me asking what's ThreadRipper?

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/ryzen_threadripper

Is DuckDuckGo incapable of finding appropriate results?

[atagunov]

Is DuckDuckGo incapable of finding appropriate results?

...well I guess I might have been more interested in a small bit of human conversation - even if intermediated by a piece of software such as a forum engine - rather than in filling the gaps in my knowledge. Besides I was interested in the personal touch 789 might have on the subject.. His message implied he was interested in this bit of hardware so I hoped to hear why it mattered to him, what connection he had with it etc.

Pls. look at it more as an invitation to talk than an inquiry for practical purposes. Though this actually is the first time I hear about this family of processors and wikipedia page alone didn't tell me enough about them.

[Screamer]

I don't get what you mean by 'human', so I'll leave it as it is.

The first time? You must be either out of the loop or you just didn't keep up with the current technology, which would be quite understandable as the performance improvements were stagnating. Badly.

To keep things brief, Threadripper processors are generally downgraded EPYC processors. It's somewhat identical to how Intel rebranded (and disabled a few features) the Xeon E5-1650 as a Core i7-3930K, to cut costs by not developing a different architecture or introducing an entirely new socket. By doing this, they saved a ton of money and at the same time, they created a second product segment for the same platform/socket. This allows their motherboard manufacturers to create a motherboard base with identical features that can be disabled or enabled to fit their intended market segment. Now, you can probably understand why some gaming and server motherboards use identical chipsets. This is the reason why.

What AMD did was similar, with the exception of the sockets as EPYC uses LGA4094 (Socket SP3) and not LGA4094 (Socket TR4).

[atagunov]

Threadripper processors are generally downgraded EPYC processors

So I gather both are server/desktop? Do common people purchase them for home use? How much do these guys cost? How much RAM do people typically pair them with? So except ultra-high number of threads are they fully-functional x86-64 processors? Each having normal x86-64 capabilities in term of floating point, "parallel" operations like SSE etc? Also what specifically did they cut, if you don't mind too many questions..

I don't get what you mean by 'human'

Well I don't mind answering.. conversation as opposed to searching online, and human as interacting with humans not computers, even if via computers

You must be either out of the loop or you just didn't keep up with the current technology

Well I'm not that old but no longer young either, sometimes I start feeling like an old-timer At work we still use boxes with say 24 cores/128Gb RAM and they still feel big to us.

[axur-delmeria]

Common folk don't usually buy Threadrippers because most don't need more than 16 CPU cores (Latest Threadrippers go up to 64 cores!!). Most will buy Ryzen (AMD's mainstream CPU line), which can have anywhere from 4 to 16 cores.

I don't blame you for not being up to date with computer technology. AMD wasn't competitive for most of this decade, so Intel got complacent and greedy, feeding us with the same 4-core, 8-thread Core i7 CPUs since 2013 (well, there's also the real struggle they had with getting their 10nm manufacturing process right). Then AMD released the first Ryzen CPUs in 2017 with quad-cores in the lowest segment (competing with the Core i3), which put Intel in panic mode and quickly released comparable models.

Unlike the previous Bulldozer architecture, each core in Ryzen (and Threadripper, as they're all based on the Zen microarchitecture) is complete. CPUs and APUs based on the Zen and Zen+ architecture (these are gen-1 and gen-1.5) have lower AVX2 performance due to AMD spliting each 256-bit AVX2 instruction into two 128-bit AVX ones; CPUs based on the subsequent Zen 2 and Zen 3 designs have rectified this, having a native 256-bit AVX2 implementation. One thing it doesn't have is AVX-512, but it's not used in general computing anyway.

[789]

personal touch 789

I have three Haswell machines; NT 5.2 (an XP-compatible OS) on them. It is reasonable to expect that they will function for another ten years. If I buy an m93p or a PowerEdge 815, I am really set. No house-hold or office needs more than Haswell, or 4x12 cores of Opteron in the fridge.

The people at Win-Raid Forum did a lot more work than the ReactOS crew. They looked at the AHCI problem and overcame it. They looked at the USB3 problem and went to work. Now they are looking at the source code and finding out what they can do with it. If they manage to upgrade XP to operate a ThreadRipper, there is hope for XP beyond Haswell and Broadwell.


ReactOS can't even be installed on a 2009 T500, but they do have a Wiki page.

[atagunov]

The people at Win-Raid Forum did a lot more work than the ReactOS crew

Good to hear. Where do they stand with legal issues btw?

[789]

legal issues btw

I expect they would agree that, by paying 280,000,000 to Caldera, Microsoft acknowledged criminal activity;
that the U.S. justice department should have taken further steps to prevent Microsoft, and in a different way;
that the European governments should do more to demolish Microsoft's criminal enterprise;
that eliminating innovation and development is criminal even if courts and governments say otherwise;
that it was il-legal for Microsoft not to repay the license fees when large number of people took their laptops to Redmont ............

I am surprised that not more discoveries of AARD-like criminal coding were made after the sources of NT 3-4-5 were released.

Windows is the worst operating system there is. And we were not allowed to find out what the best would be.
The internal combustion engine was developed over 100 years ago. Through the whole-entire twentieth century we were not allowed to find out if the internal combustion engine is the best way to generate power for an automobile. We were also not allowed to find out if gasoline is the best fuel for this internal combustion engine.

William Gates learned from John Rockefeller how to liquidate competition. From Cornelius Vanderbilt he learned how to expropriate other people's inventions and innovations. From Jay Gould he learned how to water his own stock. //What is legal Dershowitz's corporate by-the-way on that ?

If there is an embodiment of satan's choice, William Gates is.

_________________
XP on Coffee Lake, a picture from Win-Raid:

ReactOS should take a look, and weep.

[atagunov]

Microsoft acknowledged criminal activity...

He he you're talking somebody who studied at a school where the right way to address Microsoft was M$ or better "Must Die". "I have installed Must Die today," we used to say I would rather see lots of existing laws to be changed.. Yet I'm still mightily interested in how Win Raid guys are dealing with legal issues. It's fine by me if they don't but I'm still interested

[dr_st]

Microsoft-hating is sooooo late-nineties-early-00s at best.

[atagunov]

Microsoft-hating is sooooo late-nineties-early-00s at best.

You nailed it, late 90-s/early 00s are my high school/uni years
Well I sort of stick to my ideals

P.S. though now we have Google which is an a lot bigger guy on the block.. Amazon, any others? Ahhh! Facebook and Twitter!

[789]

interested in how Win Raid guys

Then, you should ask them. I found the forum while looking for AHCI driver. It is obvious that, unlike the ReactOS crew, they are not afraid to look at the recently released code and learn something from it.

Yes, in some people's moral standard, with age, criminals become saints. Legal Dershowitz and the Sopranos (and the New York sewer system) did a good job lecturing on morality and ethics. The victim, who objects, becomes a -hater, Meyer Lansky an object of admiration. Ida Tarbell is now a Rockefeller-hater, and Standard Oil a patron-saint who blessed us with oil monopoly.

Is Microsoft any better in 2020 than it was in 1998 ? Have they repented and turned from their wicked ways ? I haven't noticed something in the past twenty years ?! There is a laptop at BestBuy that did not pay Microsoft tax and has BeOS on it !? The William is not using his ill-obtained, laundered and sanctified money for nefarious purposes ?

[atagunov]

My question is about pure practicality not about morals or ethics. If there was a legally-clean and free, at least as in beer, system compatible with some older version of Windows there would be a good chance it would have enjoyed some healthy adoption across the world as it stands in 2020+.

I'm sort of happy that somewhere out there thrives an apparently not fully legally clean branch of one of these OS-es. However my feeling is it may end up enjoying very limited use..

This is completely detached from a highly debatable question about how well "legal" in our world is aligned with "moral" and "ethical".

[789]

beer, system compatible

Hobgoblin and Ryzen with w3k.

Only for hobbyists. An office cannot do it because the manager is not open to such experiments. Home users don't do it because they always want the latest, greatest with the highest serial number.

Older people who purchased their first computers during the XP years, they would love to hold onto XP and put it on a newer machine.

I read on the forum that a guy who modified a few brand-name drivers was sent message to stop. Has Microsoft ever said anything to nLite, or Fred Vorck, or 98lite ? and how many of us used 98lite or IE-less win 2000 ? Microsoft complained about Bart's live CD which was apparently widely used by the people whom MS expected to use the cumbersome version of PE. By the time win 7 was released Microsoft learned and made a live CD that was better than Bart's.

Where is nt.h ?