General Discussion: Old Thinkpads, network tools, filesharing, imaging and maybe a NAS

[Enig]

Hey Thinkpadders,

Having just recently 'completed' my own little NAS project for my ThinkPad collection,
I was wondering what everyone else does? - or at least those of you interested in such things.

How are you sharing files between your modern and your older systems? Network or something else?
Do you do drive imaging/backup and if so, what methods do you have to do it?
... if using a NAS, have you managed to make it compatible with ye olde operating systems?

Are you using any other weird or interesting network devices/services for managing or supporting your collection?

[Enig]

I'll go first.

I have just recently finished a little NAS project.
My intention here was ofc sharing files easily 'duh', but also having a way to place and restore disk-images for ThinkPads on the fly - preferably just booting using a DOS boot Floppy or USB-Stick.
(What can I say, I love swapping OS's for fun)

I chose the DIY route rather than getting a factory made NAS because more fun for me, and an excuse to get a Pi.

A RPi 4, with Raspberry OS lite (head-less), and OpenMediaVault.
Installing it and setting up a share on an SSD via USB3 adaptor was super easy (many good guides out there).

Have finally managed to configure it to be compatible with all the Operating systems I use. Including DOS. Took a few weeks of google-fun, tinkering with smb.conf and learning some DOS Networking.
So far tested with: Win10, Debian 11.2, Vista, WinXP, Win2000, Win98SE and DOS (MS Network Client 3.0).

So ofc I use it to share files, programs, games and what else you normally use a NAS for, but the main reason I started this was for the disk imaging - hence why I wanted DOS to be compatible.
Using a bootdisk or boot-usb based on 'Universal TCP/IP Network Bootdisk' I can boot up my older machines (tested up to X61s), log into the NAS, fire up Ghost and do my images that way.
For Thinkpads that don't have native network I'm using a 3Com 574 PCMCIA card.

Kinda want to try something like PXE booting now, but as I understand it your switch/router needs to support a proxy dhcp - mine does not, and I don't want to mess too much with the network as my family uses it too ..some day maybe I'll set up a separate network just for my Thinkpads


WARNING: Just in case it's not clear, then operating a NAS with a security level that allows for DOS access (or anything old really), is just a hair above no security at all. Don't expose the share to the internet.

[tinue]

More than a year ago I found a crate full of T42 machines on a local auction site. I wanted to install a different old OS on each one of them (FreeDOS, PC DOS 2000, Windows 98, ME, NT4, 2000, XP, Vista and OS/2 Warp 4.5). Burning CDs or DVDs with drivers or fix packs became a nuisance very quickly. Instead, I tried to find every possible Ethernet and WLAN driver that exists for these machines, and burn then all on one single CD.

I found very quickly that I can't connect to my regular NAS if I don't want to disable essentially all security that exists. So Instead I also set up a Raspberry Pi booting from a relatively large SSD, and configured Samba to allow pretty much all existing old protocols. I did a write up on what I did as a Github Gist (https://gist.github.com/tinue/9d9ce9c09 ... 6d0e859c4e.

The hardest OS to get working was OS/2 Warp 4.52. It seems to use the oldest protocol of the lot (LANMAN), and does TCP/IP almost as an afterthought (raw Netbios would be the default).But even this one worked in the end

The entire driver collection is now on this "NAS", and setting up a fresh OS became relatively easy.

I haven't tried plain DOS yet, and I assume it would be similar to OS/2.

[Enig]

Hey tinue, thanks for the reply

A lot of that sounds awfully familiar. I'm also running my Pi NAS on LANMAN protocol.

Had mine running NT1 protocol for a while, and worked fine for XP/2000 .. don't remember for sure, but I think even Win98 worked with it. DOS however required LANMAN.

A few notes I made moving back through time - by way of MS versions:
- All the way back to 2000 worked pretty much as modern windows, just with older and older protocol requirements.
- From Win9x I could no longer use /user:username password:password - I had to log into a windows account with a user/pass/workgroup that was set up on the NAS, not sure but workgroup seemed to be more important now.
- With DOS, LANMAN protocol was required - also a working NETBIOS name on server became a requirement .. DOS cannot map a drive on IP.
also you cannot for whatever reason ping something on NETBIOS name, that was kinda annoying.
Otherwise the same requirements as win9x - so user/pass/workgroup need to match server. Sooo is it similar to OS/2?

BTW - here a the lines I added to my smb.conf, through way too much googling (other than what OpenMediaVault may have added):

mangling method = hash
ntlm auth = yes
server min protocol = LANMAN1
client min protocol = LANMAN1
client plaintext auth = Yes
client lanman auth = Yes
lanman auth = yes
acl allow execute always = yes

Sad note: many of the options you and I use for Samba are scheduled to be removed in a future version (deprecated) .. here is a testparm from mine - I use Samba 4.13:
Load smb config files from /etc/samba/smb.conf
lpcfg_do_global_parameter: WARNING: The "encrypt passwords" option is deprecated
lpcfg_do_global_parameter: WARNING: The "client plaintext auth" option is deprecated
lpcfg_do_global_parameter: WARNING: The "client lanman auth" option is deprecated
lpcfg_do_global_parameter: WARNING: The "lanman auth" option is deprecated
Loaded services file OK.
Weak crypto is allowed
Server role: ROLE_STANDALONE

....I'm never going to update this Pi server - hahahah!



Now I kinda want to give OS/2 a shot, although I have no idea what to use it for. Have installed on a T40 before, but after getting it running .. meh! xD What of anything do you use OS/2 for?

Oh and I think there is an even older protocol. CORE? I may be mistaken but I think its Novell Network related.

Truthfully - I think if you got OS/2 down, then DOS should be just more of the same - it sounds similar.

[Enig]

Just reread you post. PC DOS and Free DOS, did you use something else on those?

[tinue]

Hi Enig

Interesting chat about old times

I still remember the OS/2 Extended Edition LAN Manager, which was the file server of the day. I guess that's where the protocol name "LANMAN" comes from. When I played with OS/2 Warp 4.52, I was astonished that it still uses this old protocol. As you say, even Windows 98 works without the "server min protocol = LANMAN1". I was afraid that SAMBA might lose support for these old protocols, and it looks like this is about to happen soon. So yeah: Best to "freeze" a working SD card image for the Pi somewhere

On OS/2 one also needs to login before a share can be mounted, and one can't pass userid/password with the mount command. This is even true if no check is done on the server, and every user is allowed. NETBIOS is also very important with OS/2, TCP/IP is pretty much hidden underneath.

At the time of OS/2 1.0 up to OS/2 Warp 3.0 I was working at IBM. I also used OS/2 at home as my primary operating system, on a PS/2 Model 70. This is why I wanted to play with it. I did install the Lotus Smartsuite, and I plan to try Stardock Object Desktop and maybe Galactic Civilisations. All of these I remember from the past. OS/2 also runs Windows 3.11 perfectly as a subsystem. I think even the sound works, but I am not 100% sure. The T40 does not support Windows 3.11 otherwise.

But I think if you never used OS/2 in the past, then you might not have too much fun with it. The range of software that came out for OS/2 was very limited, so there is not much to play with.

As for DOS: The T42 is not a DOS machine. It has a DAC for Windows sound, but it does not have a hardware synthesiser chip. This means there is no music in DOS games, or sound FX. I played with FreeDOS to see how a modern DOS replica looks like, and with PC DOS 2000 because I still know this from IBM days. To play with older DOS versions (the first one I layed my hands on was PC DOS 1.10) I prefer PCEM or similar emulators.

[RealBlackStuff]

If you still want more, have a go at CP/M.
I played with that back in the '80s, but by now have forgotten almost everything but its name.
The computer I used for it was my all time favourite Commodore 64 with some CPU-plugin.
Networking was still in its infancy in those days, non-existant for PCs I think.

[Enig]

Hi Tinue,

All this talk of OS/2.. you're actually selling it better than you think.
I'll be sure to do OS/2 again at some point. Have only played with 4.52 so far .. would there be any reason to go older?
Netwoking will ofc be essential because of this thread.
W3.11 in OS/2? That sounds almost like emulation? period correct at that

And yeah, by the time of the T40, DOS sound had already been thrown out the window. I think that happened at T23.
My 600 has a soundchip that is meant for both DOS and Windows, but I think from the next version 600E IBM devided that into 2 chips, and then finally cut it completely.

Have done an image of my Pi, now I can be sure to keep my server eternally out of date!

[Enig]

Hi RealBlackStuff,

CP/M may well be earlier than my personal retro interests. xD ..what hardware can you actually play with it on?
Only got into computers by the mid 90s (93/94 I got an Acer 486 DX 33)
Quite a lot of my more posh childhood friends back in the late 80s had 64s or more likely Amigas.

That said, I do find reading about earlier computers interesting.
What kind of networking would you do with a 64? like local area or dial up?

[tinue]

The only thing that I remember from CP/M is that "pip" is used to copy files. My high school bought Intertec Superbrain (I think) machines in my final year, but I never really warmed up to these computers. I preferred my Sharp PC 1500 at the time to do programming.

OS/2 on the T40 only works with 4.52. To play with older versions one needs to use emulators. PCEM emulating a PS/2 70 can run v1.3 nicely, for example. One could call OS/2 an early hypervisor for DOS and Windows, I guess. Windows 3.11 runs in a sort of virtual machine inside of OS/2. It does not do networking by itself, but if a share is mounted outside with OS/2, Windows has access to this share.

From what I understand with sound, the CPUs of the 80ies were not powerful enough to produce digital waveforms. This is why dedicated synthesiser chips were used. Nowadays the CPU produces all of the necessary sound and effects with ease, and only a digital to analog converter is required on the system board. I think this happened around the Pentium area. I think you are right that for a long time synthesiser chips were still on the motherboard for backward compatibility. As you say, the T23 does not emulate a soundblaster. I checked this when one of these was auctioned, and then did not put in a bid. I have an A21e that supposedly has soundblaster emulation, but it works sketchy at best. Doom for example produces no music, only FX.

[RealBlackStuff]

For my Commodore 64 I used Compuserve dial-up via a US-Robotics modem.
No networking in those days yet, as I only had the one computer in the house.

[Enig]

LoL .. long time since I've actually felt this 'young'

@tinue:
Had actually not tought about the CPU requirements for producing sound, but it does make sense. I remember games back on the 486 could actually take a performance hit simply by turning sound on. Ofc by the Pentium days this was already not an issue anymore.
I always considered the limitations back then more in terms of storage (or lack there of) - hence the use of midi, and all the various soundcard implementations of that.
I would for sure have thought that the A21e would have had a secondary Crystal Semi conductor audio chip like the A21m and p, but not according to thinkwiki. .. that could have been why?

But sound on pc + soundblaster and compatability could become several new threads I think.

@RBS
Dial-up, BBS'ing and all that was definetly a few years before I got into the game. when I first got my PC it had a built in modem, DOS and win3.11, and I got help setting it up .. but not having anything like a browser and everything was text based, it was too steep a learning curve for 14 year old me. and then win95 happened.
The closest I'm likely to come to that is probably watching 'War games' .. looks like an interesting era - and so very different.

[tinue]

I just found this: https://github.com/danmons/retronas
It does the same thing as our special Apache config, and adds AppleTalk plus many more protocols.
I hope to try it out soon

[Enig]

Hej tinue,

That is awesome!
I'll keep following this project to see else he'll add. Could become very interesting.
For now I only 'need' samba and FTP, but should I ever show interest in old Apple hardware I knw where to look.

hm.. hoping got something PXE boot related or similar.