Thinkpad build quality

[dimamyth]

Hello everyone, and have a Happy New Year!

The other day, I finally completed my c2d-generation T-series gestalt: found T500, installed c2d p9600, 1920x1200 screen from T61P (much better than the original 1680x1050, and close to IPS), added 8 GB ram, SSD for system drive, and 2Tb HDD into optibay. So I got a good machine if it's used for the proper things like web browsing, office work, some light image processing.

But I realized that it would be great to get something more modern in the same strong form. So the question is: which generation of Thinkpad was the latest in terms of maintainability, modularity, and build quality? No worse, than T61\400\500 machines?

[dr_st]

The **40 series is the last with a removable CPU. In other aspects (build quality, maintainability) there are ups and downs with every generation.

[dimamyth]

The **40 series is the last with a removable CPU. In other aspects (build quality, maintainability) there are ups and downs with every generation.

Thanks. I did some searching, and after that set my sights on the W540. It has pretty nice specs (especially the screen).

[TPFanatic]

I like the feel of the T500, T61, and T4* but as Richard Sapper said "time is one of the few things that may ultimately establish the true quality of an object", and for T4* and T61 (Nvidia models) time quickly proved them to be fatally flawed. T500 takes a little more time for its fatal flaw of the freezing left hinge to manifest, which upon failure takes out the lid rollcage. I actually was recently given an Nvidia T61p which has naturally failed gfx, but it's left hinge too has frozen like the T500 does.

I believe the newer machines have substantially improved on build quality. A W540 should please you well. Unless you need an optical drive, I'd actually recommend you look at the P50 series. The coloration is more black and they bring back the HDD indicator.

[dr_st]

Turned on my T42 for the first time in months. That machine is going to be 18 this coming spring. Around these parts that is legal drinking age.

The original battery has about 1.2Wh of juice remaining, the CMOS battery seems to have died, the fluorescent is worn, starts dark in the center and takes long minutes to reach reasonable brightness, and the hinges are wobbly (which they have been since the machine was about 2 years old). Other than that, it's still kicking. I guess I had a lucky sample.

[TPFanatic]

Oh My household still has a working specimen too. but among its brethren, most do seem to work for a good several minutes until the Southbridge warms up and detaches itself. I recently played with an R50p that is fine for about 10 minutes then the Ultranav and HDD stop responding and the OS continues to operate on RAM until it soon crashes.

[dimamyth]

BTW, nVidia faults are sometimes unpredictable.

Case #1: I had a T61 with Quadro 570, it ran flawlessly over a year, but with an external monitor, because it's display was broken. I found a donor machine, with dead Quadro 140 mobo, succesfully transferred it's display to my system. It worked for two days, and on the day three failed exactly in the same way, as the donor board: screen image was multiplied several times horizontally and vertically, and Windows gave out a BSOD when tried to start the video driver.

Case #2: I sold Quadro 140 machine (production date 2007). Two month after, the client contacted me, complaining about non-starting Thinkpad (beeps, black screen). I swapped his system with working Intel gfx one, being sure it's an nVidia fault. When the faulty laptop arrived, I found, that it had failed due to a dead BIOS battery, but the video chip is absolutely fine.

And a little note on the hinges: to make them move well I use 1-2 drops of car brake fluid. Apply them to the hidden end of the hinge (I use a syringe for this), then close the lid a few times, and you're done. Works well on t61 and t400. Be careful, as the liquid can damage soft-touch plastic, being spilled excessively.

[WarMachine]

Hello,

The *40 series are the last machines where you can easily upgrade things, I have the T440p in mind (if it wasn't for the keyboard or the max RAM quantity, I would have already bought one for my collection). The other laptops of this generation can also be interesting but not as upgradable as the T440p. On models like the T440(s) or on the X240, you can do a lot of things, but you're stuck with the original CPU (you could of course change the entire motherboard, but not everyone wants to do this).

But it's not as easy as on the T440p. For example, on the T440p, only one screw to maintain the lower part of the chassis, so, components are very accessible. On the T440 or the X240, you'll have 8 screws to maintain the lower chassis. If we compare the system to maintain the keyboard, it's a pain in the *** to remove the one on the T440 (it's different on the X240, not easier and, if I remember well - correct me if I'm wrong - you must disassemble the motherboard to access the keyboard), when I see how those were attached on the previous generations of Thinkpads, I see that as a regression. I had the opportunity to change the motherboard on my T440, I was afraid before starting the operation but it went surprisingly smooth. The maintaining system for the cable of the keyboard is veeeery fragile and not easy to access, but when you know how it's done, not very difficult. The same for the pad (this piece, most of the users want to change it because it's real crap, the Synaptic one from the T450, with physical buttons, is so much better). Oh, and the screen in itself is not difficult to change, but the bezel is glued to the chassis and you must be veeeeeery careful to remove it, as it can easily be destroyed).

Machines from the previous generations are easier to work with but, to my eyes, the ones I found to be a real pleasure to disassemble were the ancient X series (X4x, X6x, X2xx). The T4x are a little more difficult to work with but once you have done one, it's also a pleasure (I disassembled and reassembled two of those in less than an hour one day). The T6x are also very pleasant, very similar to the T400. For the T410, I found that the bezel where the touchpad is is tricky to remove, but once it's removed, that's easy to work in the laptop. The replacement of the screen is super easy, it took me less than 1 minute for my first try !). More difficult on the T420 because if you change from HD to HD+, for example, you must also change the video cable that goes through the left hinge. The bezel is also a little tricky to remove, same as the T410.

The T4x0s models are not difficult to disassemble, but you must be organized, because of the cables (it's also tricky for some of those on the X2xx by the way). What I don't like with those, and it's similar with all the machines on which the CPU is soldered : if you just want to replace the thermal paste, you're good to disassemble the entire laptop. But all in all, the construction is very clever and very sturdy.

All in all, I would say that's generally pleasant to work with those machines. I have had the occasion to work on some Acer and Toshiba, I didn't like it. I also had to disassemble a MacBook Alu from 2008 (the first with the Unibody chassis), the screws are so little ! The laptop is very well assembled (but be careful, that doesn't mean that the machine is as sturdy as the Thinkpads) and it's nice to work with, there are some very nice systems like the lock for the part that goes over the battery (but the RAM is not easy to put for example). I'll receive a "new" W520 in two or three days, I won't have much to do on it, thermal paste replacement, adding memory sticks, an mSATA SSD and change the keyboard for one with the correct letters placement, and i know i'll be able to do it in more or less 5 minutes (I've already done it on my first W520 and it was also very easy (you just have to be careful with the bezel, not to break the little plastic pieces that maintain it to the lower chassis, but again, as it's not the first time, I have no fear).



W.

[dimamyth]

Hello,

The *40 series are the last machines where you can easily upgrade things, I have the T440p in mind (if it wasn't for the keyboard or the max RAM quantity, I would have already bought one for my collection). The other laptops of this generation can also be interesting but not as upgradable as the T440p.

Wow. Thanks for the reply, sir, it was a cool read.

The main reason, why I settled on the T*00 series, is the presence of a serial interface. I work with industrial devices, and there are many legacy systems, that require the good-old onboard rs232, but don't work with usb or pc-card.

Afaik, there was an optibay rs-232 port expander on the T6x series. Is there something similar for modern Thinkpads?

[TPFanatic]

I imagine some sort of USB converter is the only option.

[kfzhu1229]

If you want CPU upgradability, Haswell (4th gen Intel) are the last ones to feature such feature without going for a desktop CPU in a laptop, and hence T/Wx40 series.
If you throw CPU upgradability and Ultrabay out of the window, then AFAIK to many people T480/T580 are the last ones for another milestone.
Of course each generation of Thinkpads would have their strengths and weaknesses.
ThinkPad T6x 4:3 have sleek designs that gets their awards, but in my experience the stock fan curve is too lazy and my poor T7400 CPU upgrade on T60 with iGPU goes over 90C max, and dGPU cooling doesn't have enough mounting pressure
Core 2 16:10 Thinkpads that came after have the assymetric LCD bezels and 14.1" version only have 4 cell batteries that don't protrude whose battery life is virtually non-existant, but don't have much problems structurally if you take care of the copycat Dell style hinges.
T420 T520 T430 T530 etc don't have the assymetric LCD annoyances and while chassis durability is decent and lighter than most, it is no match against the MIL-STD rated chassis of Elitebooks and Latitudes of the era and have trash speakers, but hey T420/T520 has that classic keyboard thing going for it and laptop looks quite nice and is lighter than the competition.
If you rely on RS232 serial and can't use an USB adapter for compatibility reasons, then T6x are the last to support them, and T400/T500 should still support them via a docking station.
If you absolutely need it on the laptop itself and newer than T6x, the lower end R series equivalent HP Probook 6440b/6540b Dell Latitude E5410/E5510 (all are Arrandale 1st gen Core i series laptops) are the last to have it onboard. Latitude E5470/E5570 (6th gen Skylake, last official E series family models) are the last to support them (Serial + Parallel + 2x PS/2) via a docking station (dock can run on battery power, and no those ports are NOT USB powered).

[WarMachine]

Hello,

The *40 series are the last machines where you can easily upgrade things, I have the T440p in mind (if it wasn't for the keyboard or the max RAM quantity, I would have already bought one for my collection). The other laptops of this generation can also be interesting but not as upgradable as the T440p.

Wow. Thanks for the reply, sir, it was a cool read.

The main reason, why I settled on the T*00 series, is the presence of a serial interface. I work with industrial devices, and there are many legacy systems, that require the good-old onboard rs232, but don't work with usb or pc-card.

Afaik, there was an optibay rs-232 port expander on the T6x series. Is there something similar for modern Thinkpads?

Hello dimamyth,

Happy to help.

I could have wrote more, as I serviced every machine I own, but my 701Cs. But I didn't want my fingers (and the eyes of the readers) to burn !

I agree with you about the RS-232 interface, it's better when included, the adapters plugged on USB ports and so on will not work for everything, mostly because of the drivers. I still have clients that ask if they can install these adapters on their new PC, and ask if their old hardware will work too. And each (or most of) time, I say that the adapter is OK on their PC, but also that they must verify if there is a driver for their old hardware, and they understand that it's not as easy as it seems. My advice, and that's what you do : use old computers with native interface.

As I don't use this type of connector myself, I didn't know there was a system that could be used in the bay. That's very nice and I'm not even surprised that this thing exists, I still remember an old IBM catalog that presented all the extension possibilities for a Thinkpad of this era, there was a lot of products ! Today, these bays are most of the time used to add an hard disk (and I, I also like it for the possibility to plug an additionnal battery). For laptops like the T6x or T4x0s, that's very nice. For the T4x0s, that can't accept one 9-cell battery, it's possible to have something similar with a main 6-cell and a secondary 3-cell battery. Kind of the same thing that exists on later models from the *40 series where, with the PowerBridge system, the two batteries (one external, the other internal) work altogether.

After a quick search, I found that : https://www.ivoidwarranties.com/2008/08 ... t-bay.html



W.

[RealBlackStuff]

If you are after a small machine (not necessarily a laptop) with serial port, consider the M900 Tiny, which has a few Display ports plus a VGA port, which can be replaced with a proper RS-232 port.

[mraroid]

Hello... The T530 and the more capable W530 have a socket for the CPU. And I believe that is the last of the Lenovo laptops with a CPU socket in them. Also, if you have not bought a Lenovo laptop yet, and you are looking to upgrade the CPU, the W530 is a far, far, better machine. Also, Officially the T530 and better W530 can only take 32 GBs or RAM. But you can install 64 GBs if you like.

Also note that Lenovo made an internal blu-ray reader/burner that slides into the slot that the CD reader is in. Another upgrade. Both the T530 & the W530 offer an Nvidia GPU. The slower GPU is called the K1000M and the faster Nvidia GPU is the K2000M. Be sure to buy the laptop with the faster GPU in it as I believe you can not upgrade it like you can for the GPU.

mraroid

[RealBlackStuff]

There are newer T440p, T540p, W540 and W541 which also have a CPU socket.

[WarMachine]

W530 can only take 32 GBs or RAM. But you can install 64 GBs if you like.

Hello,

It's not possible to install 64 GB in a W530.
You can have a look here :
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/16 ... d-to-know/

Processors compatible with 16 GB modules
Any system using an Intel Skylake (6000-series) or Broadwell (5000-series) processor

The CPUs in the W530 are the 3rd generation Intel Core (Ivy Bridge). The first processors to accept 16 GB modules are the Broadwell ones and it's the 5th generation (even the Haswell, the 4th generation) doesn't recognize these modules.

On my fresh T450s (I received it today) with an i7-5600u, a Broadwell CPU, I have a 16 GB stick and everything is fine, I also put it in the X250 (more useful for me) with an i5 5300u and everything is OK (I'm typing this very message on it), no older machine could recognize such a capacity.

W.

[mraroid]

WarMachine....

You are right and I was wrong!

I saw a post on youtube saying that the W530 could take 64 GBs of RAM. I went to youtube to look for that post again so I could buy the RAM, but the post is missing, or I can't find it anymore.

I then downloaded the service manual for the W530. If I was reading it correctly, it said that for the W530 it has two RAM slots available from the back of the laptop. And it also has two RAM slots under the keyboard with blanks in them. If I was reading the service manual correctly, it said that you could not populate the two RAM slots under the keyboard.

My T530 arrived and I took some of it apart. It had 4 RAM chips in it - two in the rear of the laptop and two under the keyboard. I had a total of 16 GBs or RAM.

So maybe I have a newer model W530?? I am guessing that I can put four 8 GB memory chips in my W530??

Any thoughts on that?

Thank you for your help!

mraroid

[mraroid]

There are newer T440p, T540p, W540 and W541 which also have a CPU socket.

RealBlackStuff....

Do any of the above laptops you listed support Windows 11?
Thank you for your post.

mraroid

[600X]

P50 was the only modern device that reminded me of the T60 era in terms of build. I used to own a T440p and T540p and the build quality on those is atrocious.

[RealBlackStuff]

There are newer T440p, T540p, W540 and W541 which also have a CPU socket.

Do any of the above laptops you listed support Windows 11?

W11 requires TPM2.0 (since G6 Intel CPU), but also supports PTT (Platform Trust Technology), which Intel introduced on G4 Haswell, but only on the U models.
G4/G5 M, MQ, H and desktop models do not support PTT.
Weird official result: T440, T440s, T550, W550s, X240 and X250 (all have U CPU) will run Windows 11 just fine, but
the above T440p, T540p, W540 and W541 (with M/MQ/H CPU) won't (at least not without some software modding).
Instead it is recommended to install W10 LTSC on those.
Besides, who really gives an Eff for W11? They should have called it Wista.

Just in case: I got some of the above info here.

[mraroid]

Weird official result: T440, T440s, T550, W550s, X240 and X250 (all have U CPU) will run Windows 11 just fine, but
the above T440p, T540p, W540 and W541 (with M/MQ/H CPU) won't (at least not without some software modding).
Instead it is recommended to install W10 LTSC on those.
Besides, who really gives an Eff for W11? They should have called it Wista.
Just in case: I got some of the above info here.

Thank you for your post RealBlackStuff...

I am a nob, and thought that lower model numbers were older laptops and higher model numbers were newer laptops. I see I was wrong about that. Of the Windows 11 laptops you listed ( T440, T440s, T550, W550s, X240 and X250) do any have a socket for a CPU? And of the ones listed, do any have an internal optical drive?

I am looking for a laptop for a kid starting collage. I want to give him a Windows 11 laptop because I do not want him to face buying a new laptop in Oct of 2025 because Microsoft stops supporting Windows 10. Maybe Microsoft will change it's mind by Oct of 2025, who knows.

I would like to buy a fast CPU, and rebuild the laptop (remove the heat sync and thermal paste, clean it all, install new thermal paste and re install a clean fan, install a new SS hard drive, etc), then give him the laptop all tuned up with Team Viewer installed in case he gets into trouble.

Which of the above laptops would you suggest? A faster CPU is better, and an optical drive if possible. It would be nice if the laptop had a socket for the CPU, but I understand that newer laptops do not have this.

Suggestions?

Thank you for taking the time to narrow all of this down for me.

mraroid

[RealBlackStuff]

T440p, T540p, W540 and W541 all have a CPU socket and a CD/DVD-drive

T440, T440s, T550, W550s, X240 and X250 all have a soldered CPU and no CD/DVD-drive.
If you want one of those, I suggest to get a USB CD/DVD drive instead, since they are rarely used nowadays.

If you want a nice, reasonably priced Thinkpad with still quite a few years of life ahead of it, get a T480 with i5-8350U CPU and FHD screen (and an external CD-drive).
It supports Wista no problem.
And forget about swapping CPUs.

OTOH, why insist on Winblows?
If you install Linux, any Thinkpad from ~2010 and later will still go strong for quite a while!

[mraroid]

T440p, T540p, W540 and W541 all have a CPU socket and a CD/DVD-drive

T440, T440s, T550, W550s, X240 and X250 all have a soldered CPU and no CD/DVD-drive.
If you want one of those, I suggest to get a USB CD/DVD drive instead, since they are rarely used nowadays.

If you want a nice, reasonably priced Thinkpad with still quite a few years of life ahead of it, get a T480 with i5-8350U CPU and FHD screen (and an external CD-drive).
It supports Wista no problem.
And forget about swapping CPUs.

OTOH, why insist on Winblows?
If you install Linux, any Thinkpad from ~2010 and later will still go strong for quite a while!

Hello RealBlackStuff....

I really appreciate your help with this issue. It is like drinking from a fire hose trying to learn from the many skilled folk here on this forum. I am catching up as fast as I can.

The young lad I wish to build a Windows 11 laptop for is a windows person. I run Linux (ubuntu) myself at home. But this youngster was raised on Windows. So I am giving him a Windows laptop.

He has been using a very expensive cool pad for his old HP Windows 10 laptop that will not upgrade to Windows 11. It is this cool pad:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08LNT1KPH?ps ... ct_details

This cool pad has two disadvantages. First, it is quite expensive. And second, while it is made so you can place the fans anyplace, the fans will often just fall off. Once I found out where the air intake was located on the bottom of this HP laptop, I placed the fans correctly, and then put a tie-wrap around each fan so they will quit falling off. He is also using some software to keep his laptop cool. The software is called Kerish Doctor. It costs $20.00 for three years, and you can install it on three computers:

https://www.kerish.org/en-us/download.php

This software has an option that will let you chose a temperature that you wish to keep your CPU & GPU. You select the temperature (he set his up for 170 F (77 C) and if the temps start to go over that range, the software will kick the CPU/GPU fan up to higher and higher speeds until the temps drop down to just below the temp you have chosen.

Between the cool pad, and the software, I think I can buy a modest i7 processor and drop that into a socket that an i5 processor may be in. It all depends on the price of the laptops on ebay. I have yet to start searching for a laptop. But after reading your post, I think I will look at a T440p, T540p, W540 or W541. He is already into burning DVDs for his friends. They swap DVDs like I swapped home made cassettes taps for music when I was a kid. So he wants a optical drive. Guess young kids today have yet to switch to flash drives...

Of the three (T440, T540, W540, & W541) which is the newer laptop? Or to ask the question another way, which would be the fastest machine? I am guessing that they all have an option of a GPU as well as video on a chip on the motherboard? I am guessing that the GPU is soldered in place?

Your info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your help!

mraroid

[RealBlackStuff]

T440p
T=Thinkpad,
4=14" size (5=15.6")
40=2014 (50=2015, etc.)
p=power version

W540/1
W=Workstation
5=15.6" screen size
40/41=2014 model

The above are all 2014 models.

The T440p is the smallest one and still portable.
All others are rather "luggable", where W541 is best.
But as said before: neither of them supports Wista.

Also, Thinkpads don't need a fancy cooler and some silly program to "select" your temperature (77c is way too high).

AFAIK the last known Thinkpads with DVD-drive (both 15.6" models, supporting Wista):
- E570 from 2017.
- Ideapad 330 from 2019

If you insist on Wista, get him a T480 (or newer) and a USB DVD-drive.
He'll give up on those DVDs soon enough.

Up to you now, I'm done.

[mraroid]

All good info RealBlackStuff. Many thanks.

I just heard about a T480 which supports Windows 11. No internal optical drive, but many USB 3.0 ports to use for an external optical drive if one wanted one. Yea, I hope he will forget about burning DVDs with his childhood friends. A flash drive is the way to go.

I will check out the laptops you posted. I found the official Lenovo web site and it has owner manuals and service manuals available for free. Now that I have that discovery, I can read about the many different models without pestering so many folks here.

Thanks again,

mraroid

[Ibthink]

AFAIK the last known Thinkpads with DVD-drive:
- E570 from 2017.
- Ideapad 330 from 2019

Along with the E570, DVD drives were also available two other 2017 models: P71 and L570. That was the end of the line for DVD drives in ThinkPads.

[mraroid]

Thanks for your post Ibthink.... The model numbers make no sense to me time wise. I appreciate the help. I will check some prices on ebay.

mraroid